Email from Louise Alcock responding to a query from Daphne who emailed me re parents Annie Tivey

 

 

Hi John,

My container has finally arrived. Yay.

I really don't know how much more I can add to Annie the enigma.

Both the death certificates of Samuel and Phoebe state "3 males , 4 females, 1 male deceased, 1 female deceased" which totals 9 children. There are no names. I can't add them up.

The 1841 British census state the children of Samuel and Phoebe living with them are Joseph 7, Alfred 4, Sarah 2, Elizabeth 6 months.

On the ship Bermondsey, 1848, the children are listed as; Alfred 11, Sarah 9, Elizabeth 7, Harriet 11 months, James 14. I don't know if James is the Joseph from the 1841 census or not. Possibly as I don't know who James would otherwise be.The age is right.

The Monaro Pioneers website lists their children as; Alfred, Samuel, Sarah Ann, Elizabeth, Anne (m William Harris), Harriett, Ellen. They didn't elaborate fully on all the children meaning they didn't go into Anne's marriage and issue. Also, it still doesn't add up to 9 children.

I think this is why in my handwritten notes I had Ann as Phoebe's daughter. As a midwife I find it easier to believe Phoebe giving birth at 49 yrs with the problem of menopause and irregular periods (I've seen it happen much to the woman's horror), rather than Harriet giving birth at 13 years and getting pregnant at 12 years of age. Then there is the issue of menache. Girls in this present century are menstruating at this age and younger because it is believed to be due to increased hormones in our food system. The usual age of teenage girls in the 1860s would be closer to 16 - 18 years of age. But then again, there is documentation of very young girls birthing at 13 or 14 years of age in history (it's that bell curve!) such as King Henry VII whose mother, Margaret Beaufort, was 13 years old, and 7 months pregnant when her husband died...

(I would rather have a sister look after me who was young than a possibly cranky, tired, postmenopausal woman in her 50s.)

However, if oral history says that Harriet was Ann's mother and Jonas her father, then I guess I have to accept that.

Now for Jonas' wives and his death certificate. Now, the informant of his death was Harold M Alcock, my grandfather, who was 5 weeks old when his mother Harriet, died. He was not very accurate. Being the youngest I figure he would have been about 48 years old when Jonas died. He listed Emily as being 65 yrs old, so Annie would have been older yet again, and Annie being married the year after he was born and Harriet dying, I don't think Annie would have figured much in his life and perhaps this is why Annie was not listed on Jonas' death certificate. However, Jonas himself was the informant for Harriet's death certificate and hence Annie was listed but with no age. [My grandfather actually listed one of his own children from his first wife incorrectly on her death certificate - and her name was Annie too.]

As for Jonas' wives. My grandfather (Harold Mortimer, known as 'Mort') listed some errors on his father's death certificate with the wives, namely; Harriet Green, Emmaline Jane Chislett and Elizabeth Jane Waugh. In actual fact it was (according to the actual marriage certificates) Harriet Tivey 1867, Emmaline Jane Chislett Claffey 1886 (she was a widow so I'm not sure which was her maiden and which was her married name) and Elizabeth Jane (Jean on her death certificate) Gilchrist, 1912. She was also a widow and her death certificate has her father's name as Waugh.

No, Jonas didn't marry his niece. Emily Rose was Jonas' and Harriet's *first (umm, legal?) child born in 1868. She married William Small. The oral history that I have heard is that William Small was found by Jonas as a child crying on the side of a road when Jonas was working a bullock team. He brought him home and raised him - so the story goes. I know that later when William died his brother was meant to help Emily as they hadn't any children, but he didn't, and so Emily lived for a time with my parents and then with uncle Curly.

Two of Jonas' and Harriet's sons married sisters; Henry Caleb married Bernice Ralph, and Joseph Nehemiah married Florence Ralph. Now, Bernice and Florence were nieces of Jonas' second wife Emmaline. Got it? But wait, there's more...

Jonas and Emmaline also helped look after Margaret Lavell, who became my grandfather's (Harold Mortimer as above) second wife, and two of her uncles who were brothers married into the Alcock family also. Arthur James married Louisa Alcock - a daughter of Jonas and Harriet; and Sidney James married Lavinia Alcock who was a niece of Jonas.

I think that's about it for now. You may need to wrap your head around that! LOL. Told you they took in various children. I think they must have been very caring people.

Catch you again later,

Keep on searching

Louise

Email from Louise Alcock 23 August 2014

 

Hi John,

My container has finally arrived. Yay.

I really don't know how much more I can add to Annie the enigma.

Both the death certificates of Samuel and Phoebe state "3 males , 4 females, 1 male deceased, 1 female deceased" which totals 9 children. There are no names. I can't add them up.

The 1841 British census state the children of Samuel and Phoebe living with them are Joseph 7, Alfred 4, Sarah 2, Elizabeth 6 months.

On the ship Bermondsey, 1848, the children are listed as; Alfred 11, Sarah 9, Elizabeth 7, Harriet 11 months, James 14. I don't know if James is the Joseph from the 1841 census or not. Possibly as I don't know who James would otherwise be.The age is right.

The Monaro Pioneers website lists their children as; Alfred, Samuel, Sarah Ann, Elizabeth, Anne (m William Harris), Harriett, Ellen. They didn't elaborate fully on all the children meaning they didn't go into Anne's marriage and issue. Also, it still doesn't add up to 9 children.

I think this is why in my handwritten notes I had Ann as Phoebe's daughter. As a midwife I find it easier to believe Phoebe giving birth at 49 yrs with the problem of menopause and irregular periods (I've seen it happen much to the woman's horror), rather than Harriet giving birth at 13 years and getting pregnant at 12 years of age. Then there is the issue of menache. Girls in this present century are menstruating at this age and younger because it is believed to be due to increased hormones in our food system. The usual age of teenage girls in the 1860s would be closer to 16 - 18 years of age. But then again, there is documentation of very young girls birthing at 13 or 14 years of age in history (it's that bell curve!) such as King Henry VII whose mother, Margaret Beaufort, was 13 years old, and 7 months pregnant when her husband died...

(I would rather have a sister look after me who was young than a possibly cranky, tired, postmenopausal woman in her 50s.)

However, if oral history says that Harriet was Ann's mother and Jonas her father, then I guess I have to accept that.

Now for Jonas' wives and his death certificate. Now, the informant of his death was Harold M Alcock, my grandfather, who was 5 weeks old when his mother Harriet, died. He was not very accurate. Being the youngest I figure he would have been about 48 years old when Jonas died. He listed Emily as being 65 yrs old, so Annie would have been older yet again, and Annie being married the year after he was born and Harriet dying, I don't think Annie would have figured much in his life and perhaps this is why Annie was not listed on Jonas' death certificate. However, Jonas himself was the informant for Harriet's death certificate and hence Annie was listed but with no age. [My grandfather actually listed one of his own children from his first wife incorrectly on her death certificate - and her name was Annie too.]

As for Jonas' wives. My grandfather (Harold Mortimer, known as 'Mort') listed some errors on his father's death certificate with the wives, namely; Harriet Green, Emmaline Jane Chislett and Elizabeth Jane Waugh. In actual fact it was (according to the actual marriage certificates) Harriet Tivey 1867, Emmaline Jane Chislett Claffey 1886 (she was a widow so I'm not sure which was her maiden and which was her married name) and Elizabeth Jane (Jean on her death certificate) Gilchrist, 1912. She was also a widow and her death certificate has her father's name as Waugh.

No, Jonas didn't marry his niece. Emily Rose was Jonas' and Harriet's *first (umm, legal?) child born in 1868. She married William Small. The oral history that I have heard is that William Small was found by Jonas as a child crying on the side of a road when Jonas was working a bullock team. He brought him home and raised him - so the story goes. I know that later when William died his brother was meant to help Emily as they hadn't any children, but he didn't, and so Emily lived for a time with my parents and then with uncle Curly.

Two of Jonas' and Harriet's sons married sisters; Henry Caleb married Bernice Ralph, and Joseph Nehemiah married Florence Ralph. Now, Bernice and Florence were nieces of Jonas' second wife Emmaline. Got it? But wait, there's more...

Jonas and Emmaline also helped look after Margaret Lavell, who became my grandfather's (Harold Mortimer as above) second wife, and two of her uncles who were brothers married into the Alcock family also. Arthur James married Louisa Alcock - a daughter of Jonas and Harriet; and Sidney James married Lavinia Alcock who was a niece of Jonas.

I think that's about it for now. You may need to wrap your head around that! LOL. Told you they took in various children. I think they must have been very caring people.

Catch you again later,

Keep on searching

Louise

Louise Alcock email dated 15 June 2006 had 8 children. Harriet died 21june1884 12 days after giving birth to number 8.